CMO Confessions Ep. 33: Jen Horton of Swivel

Okay, webinerds, we’re back with another episode of CMO Confessions, our B2B podcast with the top leaders in marketing and sales today. Today’s CMO Confessions features Jen Horton, CMO of Swivel, an agile real estate software company.

In this episode, Jen and Cheri Keith, Head of Strategy and Research at ON24, discuss Jen’s career path and how it led her to Swivel, what excites them about B2B marketing, trends they’re seeing and some of their pet peeves in B2B marketing.

As always, you can find the full episode of CMO Confessions on Podbean here an edited transcript of our conversation below.

You can learn more about Jen’s career through her LinkedIn page here and her Twitter feed here.

If you’re interested in listening to our growing podcast series, you can find all of our episodes right here in Podbean. Alternatively, you can also find us on both iTunes and Google Play stores.

Without further ado, welcome to another edition of CMO Confessions.

Table of Contents:
First time CMO
The Shift from Advising to Practicing
Transitioning to a Startup
New Technology
The Excitement of Being Responsive and Creative Storytelling
The Plight of Crappy Chatbots and Other B2B Pet Peeves
Buzzwords and the Language of Real Estate
Trends in B2B Marketing
Overcoming Challenges

Cheri Keith:

Hello, and welcome to CMO confessions, the weekly B2B marketing and sales podcast, where I speak with amazing guests about what it really means to be a marketing leader in today’s business world. I am Cheri Keith, Head of Strategy and Research at ON24.

On today’s episode, I am so excited to have Jen Horton as our guest. Jen and I spent time together at SiriusDecisions and she is now the chief marketing officer at Swivel, an agile real estate leasing software for companies. Jen, thank you so much for coming on.

Jen Horton:

Thank you for having me. Looking forward to it.

First Time CMO

Cheri Keith:

I know! This’ll be fun. I’m going to start with some questions about where you are today and how you got here. But I first want to start by asking about your current role being a CMO since this is your first time being a CMO, which is exciting and inspiring. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Jen Horton:

Yeah. It was exciting, and I think I continue to be inspired every day.

Prior to joining Swivel, I started my career as a practitioner doing demand gen and implementing marketing automation. I think I was one of Eloqua’s very first customers back in the day. But, then I took a detour and went the vendor route and worked at Eloqua for many years, both in the product and in the services side, which was fantastic to learn about the other parts of a software company.

I then worked at SiriusDecisions for many years as an analyst and have been advising clients for a long period of time. I just really figured that my next step in the path was to dust off those practitioner muscles and really get back into the game and use all the new technology that has exploded since the days of when I first adopted Eloqua. And really just get my hands dirty with a lot of things.

That’s kind of why I took this step and where I am and my path. And I was fortunate to join a very small company so that I can wear all the hats from strategy, to actually having hands on a keyboard, to sending out emails. So, it’s been quite a ride and a lot of fun.

The Shift from Advising to Practicing

Cheri Keith:

You mentioned something really interesting, which is the transition from advising to actually being the one who’s in the shoes of the advice you’d have to take. First of all, how has that been? And second of all, I want to know if you give yourself advisory sessions at any point.

Jen Horton:

No, I don’t. It actually has helped me realize what the role, why advisory can be important and helpful because when you’re in it and doing it and worrying about all the things and taking all the requests and supporting all the sales needs, you don’t have a lot time to just take a step back and breathe and think really strategically long-term. It’s hard to find that time.

I realized that now, when you think about all of our clients, they were like, “Oh, that makes sense.” And I know that a lot of analysts have always been like, “Oh, the imposter syndrome. I’m not necessarily the smartest person in the world, or maybe I am the smartest person in the room.” But as an analyst, it’s like, no, an analyst gets paid to take the step back and to look at lots of clients and what they’re doing and really synthesize that. As a practitioner, it’s really hard to do that and stay on top of it in a really well-informed way. So, I have a greater appreciation for the role that has.

That said, moving back into practitioner land. I’ve also really tried to be very clear with myself to say, “Just ‘cause you have all that wealth of information and best practices that you may not know everything, right?” You really have to kind of just start fresh and rely on the best practices, but not solely. You’ve really got to get things out there and try different things and let the data and the feedback from your customers really start to inform what you need to do next. So, yeah, it’s been an interesting shift.

Transitioning to a Startup

Cheri Keith:

I have one more question about shifts before we go to talk a little bit more about technology, but how about the cultural shift that you just went through? When I was thinking about what you were saying there, you went from working for a publicly traded, pretty large organization based up in Massachusetts. And I know Massachusetts people can be tough, coming from one. Now you’re working again at a startup, like you mentioned, but also in your hometown of Austin, how has that shift been?

Jen Horton:

Oh, that’s a great question. And it has been a big shift. I went from a team of all, very senior tenured marketing sales, product minded people that spent a lot of time thinking about those things. Managing some of them, which is also kind of a loose term in some cases to being the only person on our team that thinks about marketing and really thinking about even sort of go-to-market strategy and selling strategy.

The transition has also been, you’re right. I haven’t gotten on a plane in about a year and a half, and I’ve really started to ground myself in my own local network. We have a Marketing Maestro’s Leadership and Austin MeetUp, and it’s been really great to just reconnect with other people that are locally dealing with similar transitions. But yeah, it has been a big shift, but ones that I welcome.

I like that I’m not traveling. I like that I’m getting in touch with networks that I had many, many years ago, but I’ve lost touch with because I’ve been working for global companies. But yeah, it’s been good.

I still educate. One thing I do love, and I do like to educate the rest of my very technical team on marketing and why we’re doing this and how do you spell persona and why is it important that we care? It’s good to educate, but it’s just a totally different audience and as to why I have to educate them. But, that’s a good question.

New Technology

Cheri Keith:

Yeah. I know all of us are feeling that no travel thing, but even more so you had started out at the end of last year, not having the travel in place.

You mentioned marketing automation platforms. You obviously worked for Eloqua, having that experience there, but have implemented it before joining the vendor side. What is it like being inside that technology again, after just receiving briefings from those companies for so many years?

Jen Horton:

Oh, it’s been good. On the one hand was very clear on what I needed and what my requirements were. It was easy to quickly assess. There were some technology decisions that I inherited and moving into this role. Although they’re serving us quite well. I had big eyes to want to try all kinds of other technologies. We’ve implemented Drift. We’ve implemented TripleO. We’ve implemented EverString. For a small company, we’ve actually adopted quite a bit of technology, but it’s been really great to put some of those visions together.

At the same time, I also understand the notion of investing in technology prematurely, not really being able to adopt all of the things, but for the most part, we’re leveraging all of those platforms pretty strongly. Using HubSpot for the first time. That’s been interesting and cool.

Talk about the local networking side of things. There’s a lot of HubSpot users that are here in Austin, so it’s been great to learn from some of those elements. And I love the fact that HubSpot has in-app support, cause I’m constantly needing it. It just changes what your expectations are with the software product and getting real, live, in-the-moment-when-you’re-working-on-something support on that front just changes your expectations with all the technologies that you use. But yeah, it’s been great.

I started off really diligent. Like I had my little marketing ops hat on. I had my data dictionary, it was mapping out all my fields and then we’ve had to pivot as a business very, very quickly. I’m a team of one so I had to make some tradeoffs. I haven’t been as diligent with my data cleanliness as I want to be. And I sit there and I roll my eyes at myself back to your comment of, do I give myself advisory sessions? I do. I do, but sort of more on the fact that I can’t do it all. I’ve just got to prioritize.

Cheri Keith:

Yeah, of course you want to take the best practices, but there’s also an end of the day and a beginning of the day that you need to respect at the same time.

Jen Horton:

Exactly.

The Excitement of Being Responsive and Creative Storytelling

Cheri Keith:

All right. Well, keeping that in mind, with the two hats that we wear as both analyst and also practitioner, I want to talk more about what makes you tick. Were the same things that were the pet peeves of yours when you were an analyst, still the case when you’re a CMO? If you were thinking just in general about B2B marketing, what is it that excites you? Cause you’ve been in B2B your entire career fair to say, right? And like, what do you love about it? What, what gets you excited?

Jen Horton:

Well, right now, what gets me excited is the ability to be responsive. You and your team had seeded me with some questions and one of them was the biggest challenge. How did you overcome it? And right now, more than ever, and I’m sure that a lot of people are feeling this as a lot of organizations have had to shift and adapt to our current times and situation, just the ability to be agile and really be very nimble and be responsive to customer need and the market.

I think this whole situation has really been a forcing function to not overthink things, to not over control the dialogue that you’re having with your prospects, but to really feel how you can be more responsive to buyer needs and to the changing situation. That has been very energizing for me. I mean, literally the priorities of even our clients have changed from last week to this week and the ability to adapt. I’m thriving in that. I really love that.

I really liked this notion of focusing on continuous improvement and not delayed perfection. ‘Cause I think also when things are shifting really, really quickly, there is a tendency to put your head in the sand and wait until somebody else does something and then figure out how to respond.

Granted, I’m part of a small team. It’s different when you’re probably talking about this at a larger scale, but the notion of checking in every day and making sure that the objectives, the priorities and what you’re delivering at the end of the day is on point and is on point in that moment. I’m seeing that happen and it’s very exciting and what my to do list was yesterday changes very quickly and the next day. So, that’s energizing.

I get energized by also super creative storytelling. Whether that’s somebody targeting me specifically. I can’t say that I’ve necessarily nailed it as a CMO, but we’re striving to get to that point on “how do we tell a broader story?” And I think those stories that are meaningful and creative, and creative doesn’t have to be like laugh out loud. It could be an emotional connection. It could be just nailing the pain point right on. But that gets me really energized.

I think one of the transitions of moving from analyst to CMO is how many people have reached out. My LinkedIn box is nuts with so many people that want to sell me things and there’s just such a genuine lack of creativity. All of those requests, it’s depressing. It’s just absolutely depressing. And the fact that they think that a CMO of a 15-person company is going to want all of the things at any given moment leaves me feeling like blah, blah. But those people that nail it and kind of connect emotionally, I just think that’s it.

So, agility, responsiveness, and creativity are the things that are really energizing me right now. Did I answer the question?

Cheri Keith:

Yes, that was awesome. I think your point about being able to be nimble, I mean, we’re in a little bit different of a situation where overnight the market came to being like, “Yes, we need more of this” with in-person events being canceled for the foreseeable future.

I don’t think there’s going to be any large-scale events till 2020 at the very earliest. And it was shocking, I think, for a lot of the team members here. People’s full-time jobs were to plan these massive events.

Then, we had this whole crew of event marketers coming and being like, “We need to use your platform.” We’re like, “But you know how to do webinars.” And just the education that has had to go on internally.

We, of course, want to be responsive to people and we want to help people, especially within organizations where they’re already using one part of our technology. But overnight, for everything to have to change, it’s been tough. From a company that had to really be the ones driving the need for the demand, for that to shift overnight.

I think the salespeople, when I talked to them, everyone was just so appreciative and humble about it. To have these major changes in your career can be so shocking, but to at least have team members that are going through it with you, I think has been one of the things that have helped a lot of people at the end of the day is to feel like everyone is in this together. And I think that’s one of the things that has been so energizing about where the market is now is that no one has all the answers. Like there’s not a playbook written for this right now.

Jen Horton:

No, there’s no playbook. And I mean, talk about virtual events, like so front and center. And I know that there’s a lot of talk about burnout of being on video platforms and all of those things. But, I feel like it has humanized a lot of these technologies in a way to do effective storytelling, right? Like connecting with the human side of it. And not just the push of those slides and the content, but a lot of these conversational events that are taking place. I’ve loved it. I have. I’ve sat in on them. I have participated in them. And honestly, it’s been a really great way to connect and it has really humanized a lot of this technology for good. You know what I mean?

It’s interesting to see all the shifts that are taking place and you’re right, nobody has the answers. There is no playbook for this. And so, we went as a team here to being in the office. We had our Monday meetings, but now we have our morning check-in every morning we’re all on the same page. And just being aware of where all those shifting priorities and what feedback we’re getting from our customers on what they’re needing. It’s been quite the ride.

Cheri Keith:

That’s awesome. But I liked your point about the storytelling too, because you’re right. You went from getting a million pitches a day about people who want to tell you about their product, but now they just want to sell you their product. And I think that’s been a shift as well. I think that to see the other end of the storytelling or the lack of storytelling that you get within your inboxes.

Right now, I must’ve ended up on some lists about being a product manager. I’ve noticed a trend over the past week where I’ve received many pitches about UX and the design of a product. I’m like, I don’t have any of that to do though.

Jen Horton:

That’s crazy and strange. And yeah, the other thing I’ve gotten hit up a lot is like, “Are you hiring? Are you hiring?” Not people looking for jobs, but recruiters that are like, “I can help you fill jobs.” And that’s semi tone def right now where we aren’t hiring actively. In fact, we had a few layoffs that we went through. And then there’s like a lot of business coaches and I was like, “I don’t know how you’re going to coach.” Anyway, it’s just off. It’s just sort of off in that message. And it’s not the right story that I want to hear in the moment. And so, it’s just easy to tune it out.

The Plight of Crappy Chatbots and Other B2B Pet Peeves

Cheri Keith:

Well, we’ve gone over a little bit of the pet peeve, but are there any other pet peeves maybe you see about the broader industry rather than just our inboxes right now on the marketing front?

Jen Horton:

I think it’s been, and this was a theme that started back at our time together at SiriusDecisions. This notion that marketers think they can control all the touchpoints. And what that is now translating to for me, now that I’m sort of back in the real world, is you can’t control everything, but also that control notion is just a lack of creativity. Just the lack of willingness to do things that are different.

We are so bombarded by all the things. And now I’m exponentially bombarded by all the things like timing and relevance, which I know sounds tired, but it’s everything. It’s more than everything, right now, in terms of when you can connect with something and take a couple of extra minutes to dive further into it. It really has to cut through the noise.

One of my favorite books, and I know it’s really old, but it’s The Purple Cow, the Seth Godin book. And I just am like, we need more purple cows. There’s just too many cows right now. There’s just too many cows and I need a purple one. That whole notion of really standing out is just critical.

So, anyway, that pet peeve of mine is I think the control has led to, not laziness, but a lack of creativity. And it goes back to the storytelling component too. But I think the notion of one-way pushing information, rather than really rethinking how you can get more conversational and dynamic and responsive and engaged. I think the one-way push just doesn’t work anymore. And it’s a one-way push of boring content.

Cheri Keith:

It’s a really good point. And it’s totally a B2C example, but I’ve been cruising around online for a new car. And I have been shocked when I land on a dealership’s website, not when you first get on the homepage, but once I click into a model and actually get to a specific vehicle, like I’ve narrowed it in on my criteria. And it’s like, “Do you want to buy this car now?” It’s like purchasing online. And I’m like, “No, why would I do that?” Like, come on. I need to drive it beforehand, but timing and relevance.

If you even think about what a considered purchase your car is, never mind what a considered purchase you have in the B2B world. And it’s like, “Are you ready to buy now?” Hi, I’m here at the little, the chatbot I think is my pet peeve. The really crappy chatbots.

Jen Horton:

The really crappy ones, yes!

Cheri Keith:

Yeah. I don’t have an official stat on this, but I would estimate the majority of webinars in the world, they’re pretty crappy, right? People just do slides and they don’t even show videos.

The strong majority of the chatbots that appear out of the wild are pretty crappy implementations. No fault to the technology. The fault of the marketers who haven’t trained it in a better way.

I just can’t stand when you first arrive somewhere and rather than directing you, it’s like, “Hey, want to buy?” It’s like, “No, I don’t actually.” And every time it drives me crazy.

Jen Horton:

Or it’s like, “How can we help?” And then you ask a question that’s totally custom and different and then there’s no one on the other end to actually answer your question. Then, don’t offer me the ability if you’re not prepared to respond.

Cheri Keith:

Exactly. Our coworker, Jesse and I were working on chatbot research. I had actually kept a file on my desktop of all the crappy chat interactions I had. I spent like a day, not really a day. Like every time I would land somewhere, I try to have an interaction to see what would happen.

I actually tried it out multiple places and all the bad conversations I would screenshot. Then, of course, I didn’t get to use it ’cause you can’t shame people on stage, but it was an interesting dynamic of actually trying them out to see what would happen.

Jen Horton:

I love it. I would love to see your wall of shame sometime.

Buzzwords and the Language of Real Estate

Cheri Keith:

I deleted it. Any buzzwords that you can’t stand right now? Or ones that you like, maybe?

Jen Horton:

Oh, they’re the same ones that I’ve always hated. Although I saw a thread today actually, and someone was like, “Oh, the PQL.” The PQL?

Cheri Keith:

What’s that? What’s a PQL?

Jen Horton:

A product qualified lead, meaning in-app sort of gamification things that can lead to new revenue opportunities. And I get it. I totally get it. I was like, “Come on!” It’s a qualified something or other, and we have different sources for where it comes from. I don’t know. It cracked me up. I was like so many acronyms for the definition of what is quote-unquote, “A qualified something or other” that you’re going to send to a sales rep for follow up. It just cracks me up. I think the other one, Oh, go ahead.

Cheri Keith:

I was gonna say, PQL, should we see if that domain is taken? Is that something that we need to go action-on right now to confirm that when someone creates a product for it that we already own it?

Jen Horton:

Yeah, right? I think the notion of drip and sequins and things that are related to that, they still kind of make me roll my eyes. Yeah.

Right now, I’m learning a whole new language. I’m learning the language of commercial real estate. And there’s a whole ton of buzzwords, but I’m not sick of them yet because I’m just learning them.

I’m learning to speak a whole new language with brokerages and leasing teams and understanding how owners and occupiers talk to each other. And there’s a whole set of understanding the property technology that all these buildings have to invest in. And what’s top-of-mind now with people wanting to communicate about cleanliness and all the procedures that are changing in terms of staffing offices. There’s a whole new set of language that I’m learning there so I don’t have too many annoying buzzwords right now, actually.

Cheri Keith:

That’s pretty good. The ones that annoy me so far are people trying to change what digital events are and trying to make it sound new, just because they’re not in-person events and, kind of, the faking of it.

I’m like, “No, it’s okay to just be like, we know they’ll come back at some point. And we know that they’ll, of course, still be a digital component.” We’re okay with that. Let’s not pretend that this is something new.

People have been doing digital events for some time and now more people want to do them. I think it’s a lot of the companies that have really been impacted by this who are pretending like they always had done it. That’s the type of marketing that really annoys me.

I’m like, “No, it’s okay to say you’re pivoting.” Right? It’s okay. I feel like people wouldn’t like that transparency rather than when you see the posers out there changing things. It’s like, “No, it’s okay to say your company had a pivot.” You’re not going to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes at this point. I don’t think so.

Jen Horton:

Yeah. Agreed.

Trends in B2B Marketing

Cheri Keith:

All right. Any B2C trends that you’re seeing or experiencing that you hope, or maybe don’t hope, show up in B2B?

Jen Horton:

Oh, that’s a really good question. Hmm. I don’t know. I am immersed on the real estate side.

It’s funny, residential real estate is a lot further along in terms of adopting technology than commercial real estate. Commercial real estate has been a lot about who you know. Who’s your broker? And where the latest, the coolest properties? And what’s their availability? And what part of town? And make sure that it’s not in a restaurant desert. We have pockets of Austin where there are no restaurants, and they call it the restaurant desert. You don’t want office space there.

But anyway, it’s interesting to see how residential really quickly pivoted to virtual touring really well. And the notion of being able to schedule a collaborative tour to either tour an apartment or to tour a house.

Commercial has been a lot slower to adopt some of that thinking. They think a virtual tour is just a pretty interactive picture that they just put onto a flyer. Where they could get really creative and think about virtual open houses and even creating scavenger hunts through virtual tours to get people to familiarize themselves with their space.

For my industry, there’s a lot to be learned in terms of the B2B side versus the consumer side and best practices for leveraging that. Now that makes it fun because it makes it fun for me ’cause there’s a lot of opportunity to try new things and educate on the commercial side, but that’s kind of where my focus has been.

As a regular consumer trend over into B2B. I haven’t been paying attention to it like I used to. Quite honestly, I have been just heads down in my own world on the real estate side. But, what do you think?

Cheri Keith:

Well, I would say on the residential side, I actually shared this to our internal Slack channel the other day. It was this house in, I want to say it was California went viral, I mean a million-dollar house. Right? And because in the photos they had bigfoot, so they had a person dressed up throughout the house. In every photo of this gorgeous house, you would find the bigfoot doing something hilarious like doing laundry, doing something at the kitchen.

I mean, houses are shared everywhere on Zillow. It’s not going to change the market for who buys it, but I thought it was a really clever way to promote your house. I don’t know. Maybe we’re looking at listing this house maybe next year. I don’t know if that’s going to increase the sale value if I have a big foot or dress up as a bigfoot in my house. I don’t know. But, I thought that was clever.

The trend that I’m watching most, and this is because my daughter is a few years older than your daughter, Olivia, is TikTok right now and the dances and, oh my God.

Jen Horton:

Enlighten me, Cheri, enlighten me!

Cheri Keith:

Oh my gosh. I’ve seen only a few videos where it’s not even about technology. It’s like women in business doing some funny thing, but I don’t know if it’s going to come into B2B.

No one was on TikTok before the quarantine that was over the age of like 20. Now, we’re all on there because we’re all watching our kids. But yeah, that’s the one thing I’ve been, it’s a guilty pleasure at the same time. I don’t know. I’m very conflicted on it, but someone is going to make that leap.

Jen Horton:

From what I can tell, and I am by no means a TikTok expert and Olivia has not mastered it yet. Although some of my friend’s kids really have. It’s a creative platform back to what we were talking about earlier. Like if you get it right, it could be a lot of fun.

My neighbor is an orthodontist and they’ve been using it just to keep the people top of mind. Right? They were closed for a while and now they’re coming back, but they really used it just to kind of stay in touch with their clients.

That’s like back to this notion of creative platforms that humanize the brand. I mean, yeah, you’re totally right. It’s a win, it’s a win. It will be interesting to see B2B brands that embrace it and who wins and who maybe falls flat on their face trying to be funny when they’re not. I think there are great opportunities there.

Overcoming Challenges

Cheri Keith:

We’ll have to see. All right, final question I have for you today. What is a challenge you’re currently facing and how are you going to overcome it?

Jen Horton:

My challenge is I am a team of one and there’s a lot to be done. I think as a team of one and as a CMO, I think from strategic at the top to tactical at the bottom, I tend to spend a lot of time at the tactical level and not enough time at the strategic level. At the same time, I choose to not feel that guilty about it because things are rapidly changing and evolving so quickly that even my best-laid plans for two quarters out are going to change. I take peace that it’s meant to be this way and agility is the way forward. And we kind of keep that focus.

That said, balancing out the strategy and the execution is tough for me. Also, we’re a super small company. I have a super lean budget and we are preparing for the long haul. We want to weather this storm and we don’t know what all the future holds. My budget is very, very lean, which is causing us to be purely organic content developers for most cases in terms of getting awareness out there and looking creatively at partnerships in our ecosystem that we can leverage as effectively as we can. I have to get creative ’cause I can’t spend a lot of money on things to get the word out there.

I think the way to get through it is back to that agility notion. Stay on top of what’s most important and what’s most important now because what was most important last week may have changed. And I think networking, right? I think really tapping into some of these events where people are getting together and sharing what’s working and what’s not working has helped me to be like, “Oh, we didn’t anticipate that challenge. That’s probably going to be a challenge for us. I gotta get on it.”

The local networking and even just my broader network has been really, really helpful. Especially since I don’t have a broader team to brainstorm and collaborate with. Just really helpful to kind of be like, our little local Austin group as an example, people were like, “Hey, are you guys going back to the office yet? And how are you handling that? How do teams fairly divvy up the space that we can’t all go back to at the same time?” And it’s just been helpful to hear what people’s questions are. ‘Cause then I was like, “Oh my God, I haven’t asked that question yet. We need to get on that.” So, I think networking has been really helpful as well, but then I think just over communication with my team every morning has really been the key. What about you, what’s your biggest challenge right now?

Cheri Keith:

I think just getting up to speed in a world where I didn’t have enough [inaudible] speaking at, I was in Austin for a beta. I was supposed to be onboarding that week in San Francisco. And that was where I knew people because I was pretty close to ON24. But everyone else, except the CEO doesn’t know me meeting these people for the first time virtually. So, we turn on the video and it’s different, not in a bad way, but I always just wonder, I’m like, “Do these people whack a mole or like, do they understand this is just my personality?”

I think when you work in a remote way [inaudible] a ton, which is fabulous. So a challenge for me is just getting up to speed in such a strange way, remotely. I’m just doing my best and we’re communicating in all places. But, also just being really open, I don’t know. Well, and I’m doing my best and I think everyone has been really just great.

I think maybe that’s the biggest takeaway is I think that most people are handling this as best they can. And I think there used to be not, not necessarily a stigma, but you would certainly feel bad when your animal barks or your child came bombing in. Everyone’s okay with it in the right circumstances. It’s been probably a good learning experience that we can all realize that we have lives outside of work that might intrude at times.

Jen Horton:

Oh, for sure.

Cheri Keith:

That is all the time that we had. I have enjoyed our time together so much and learned so much from this conversation. I know our listeners will have as well. Thank you for joining CMO confessions and thank you, Audience, for joining in.

Jen Horton:

My pleasure. And thank you for having me.